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Posted by Maria on May 30, 2002 at 00:16:43:

In reply to: Some ideas here... posted by Nick on May 29, 2002 at 23:46:57:

Nick,

I always enjoy and learn something from your posts. That was very
well said and without getting personal.

Once more humbled (but not surprised) by your eloquence :)

Maria (who incidentally is probably about twice your age)



: : Let me see. Are you saying that when you are dealing with
issues
: of
: : skin color that you don't understand that you are also dealing
with
: : issues of race (especially here in the U.S.) I don't believe
that.
:
: Are skin color and race two different things? yes, but also vastly
: related. We are not here to acuse people of misunderstanding and
then
: to leave them in the dust. Educate those whom are ignorant.
:
:
: : If a race card was pulled, it is because it was in your deck.
But
: I
: : decline the notion that I pulled one.
:
: That was un-called for. Making accusations gets us nowhere.
:
:
: : Hear are two of the statements I have comment on:
: :
: : "Also- I just wanted to comment that I agree totally with your
: : assessment re henna on darker skinned people. No matter how dark
: the
: : henna gets, on ebony skin henna is just not going to look the
same.
: I
: : understand that in some countries like Senegal and Mali people
use
: : henna totally differently - not elaborate tiny designs, but
thicker
: : bolder, simpler designs that make the burgundy/black skin look
like
: : watered silk in the sunlight - but definitely not visible from a
: : distance"
:
:
: This is true- find a piece of fabric with highly contrasting
designs,
: and a piece of fabric with a shalower contrast. Hang them on
: something, and move about 20 feet away. You will notice that the
: highly contrasting dsigns stand out more.
: So i ask you, is skin very different?
: This is not to say that complex burgundy designs should not be
done
: on people of dark skin- it is simply to note that the affect will
be
: different. Nobody is saying that it will be less beautiful, just
: different. When Kenzi said it is "not the same" she did not mean
that
: in a negative light. She meant it in a purely literal sense,
: i.e. 'different.' It's sad that the word 'different' has become
: something negative in our society- which is why we should continue
to
: use it in it's original meaning, without negative connotations.
:
:
: :
: : and...
: :
: : "That's fascinating! I think it's possible that this is true; I
: think
: : most Moroccan women seek to have lighter skin as it is
: : considered to be more beautiful. And in general, the people in
: : Marrakesh tend to have darker skin than the people of the north.
: : Just the fact that there exist all these methods for making the
: : henna dark or black goes against what you report. it makes me
: : think that some people do want black or dark henna. Because
: : they tend to be dark skinned they want their henna to be darker
: : so it can be seen more easily."
:
:
: In this instance, "Moroccan women seek to have lighter skin as it
is
: considered to be more beautiful" Kenzi is saying that it is
: considered to be more beautiful by the Moroccan women themselves,
not
: as a general statement. This is a cultural demographic as observed
by
: outsiders. Next- "Because
: they tend to be dark skinned they want their henna to be darker
: so it can be seen more easily."
: This is an inference. Inferences are not always correct. Cut some
: slack, and perhaps open your mind to study the issue from an
unbiased
: viewpoint rather than closing it off as untrue or wrong.
:
:
: : If you do not see the implication in these statements can draw
one
: to
: : conclude that on dark skin there is a problem with the pure and
: : natural henna being seen on there skin...well, maybe you just
don't
: : want to see it.
:
:
: Kenzi is not saying that these statements are her opinions or are
: based in her opinions on the matter- they are simply based on her
: observations. It isn't fair to any of us if she just fools herself
: and 'pretties up' the truth of what she's observed. Covering up a
: tradition, like bolder designs on darker people, is doing more
harm
: than help. These are legitimate observations on her part.
:
:
:
: : My statements have been and continue to be that pure and natural
: : henna can be seen on dark skin and using something to get a
black
: : stain or some skin harming chemical to push the stain darker is
not
: : necessary for dark skin people to have stains that can be seen
on
: : their skin...even from a distance.
:
:
: Again, we're not using the word 'necesary' here- simply saying
that
: some people prefer it. This is not to say that it's a good thing
: either. You are correct, it is not necesary, and should not be
: encouraged- we are not encouraging it.
:
:
: : It is interesting to me that you would make, support or not
comment
: : against a racially insensitive comment and then wish to say
: I "pulled
: : the race card" when I do.
:
:
: Above, you accused Kenzi of not understanding that issues of skin
: color are also issues of race- to me, this sounds like you brought
up
: the issue. Kenzi was trying to stay away from the racial aspect of
: skin color, and doing so was very professional of her. If she had
: mentioned the racial aspect, she would have been accused of having
: racist points, and now that she has not, she is accused of also
: having racist points, for she ignored the racial aspect, perhaps
in
: an attempt to forget that is exists. Damned if you do, damned if
you
: don't.
:
:
: : Imparting information to customers so that they can make
informed
: : consent is a very good thing to do. But if the information
being
: : imparted is similar to what is above, then it is based on a
faulty
: : premise and is therefore not good information to impart.
:
: Faulty?
: As Anne has said above, i would say to ANY of my customers, white
or
: dark skinned, to avoid a design on a hard to stain area. Contrast
is
: contrast. White shows up on black very well. On grey? not so well.
: That cannot be changed. White on grey may be equally beautiful,
but
: it is different than white on black, and not as contrasted. This
is a
: simple art principle.
:
:
:
: :
: : The measure of what is a "good" or "not good"...or a "dark"
or "not
: : dark" stain on dark skin depends on what yard stick you are
using
: for
: : measure.
:
: Good point, but you must say, wimpy orange is never a good stain
on
: anyone. So you too are prescribing to the same yardstick as the
rest
: of us, at least in part. Actually, by this statment, you seem to
be
: saying that henna on white people and henna on darker people *are*
: different, which seems to be the opposite of the message you are
: trying to convey.
:
: :
: : That you don't make the comments above to a customer is good.
My
: : posts are about the comments in the posts that have been made
here
: : that would make people of color with dark skin believe they
could
: not
: : get "good" and "dark" stains on body parts other than hands and
: feet.
: : What is good or dark is relative...and subjective...and can be
: laden
: : with political and cultural significance. And anyone needs to
take
: : care with how such statements will be heard, read and
interpreted.
:
: We must have some standard. Yes, good and dark are relative terms,
: but not entirely. Wimpy orange is never good or dark. This is not
to
: say that people of dark skin will stain only wimpy orange, it is
: merely to make a comparison point that good and dark are only
: relative to an extent.
:
:
: :
: : You may not say it to customers, but you wrote it here. That
last
: : quote above is yours. And I repeat what I posted before, if
people
: : of dark skin may use something to push their henna darker or to
: black
: : is because they want it to be seen better on their skin. Why do
: : people of lighter hue do use something to push their henna
darker
: or
: : black. Is it because they want it to be seen better on their
skin
: as
: : well. If so, the the skin color is a nonfactor. If not, if it
is
: : because they have choice and choose, then perhaps dark skinned
: people
: : do the same...then it is a nonfactor. That statement is
reflective
: : of your own personal view about what would be needed to make the
: : henna visible on dark skin. It certainly is not based upon
: anything
: : else but your view point. It was indeed made in disagreement to
: the
: : point Efran made explaining the reasons he was "told" why dark
: : skinned people desired the red stains in the political and
cultural
: : context of the people he was describing. You can have your
: opinion.
: : I have no problem with that. My point is that it is just an
: opinion.
: : And happens to be one that I would not want other people to use
: when
: : choosing what is required for them to have excellent and
beautiful
: : henna stains on dark skin...that can be seen very very well
indeed.
: :
: : Maureen
:
: You said that Kenzi's viewpoint is only an opinion- so too is your
: own viewpoint. Nothing any of us say is anything more than an
: opinion. Aren't all things academic based in opinion? What is a
: thesis other than an opinion? Nothing. A thesis is proved therein,
: but without support, it is nothing but an opinion.
: ~Nick

 


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