Re: A moment of joy! Now ....tell me...

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Posted by Babaganooj on May 13, 2000 at 23:04:54:

In Reply to: A moment of joy! Now ....tell me... posted by Catherine Cartwright Jones on May 13, 2000 at 10:39:43:

First, I applaud the research you have been doing on this topic,
especially the sholarliness of the approach, you certainly
are way ahead of something I was going to suggest as well.
Mainly looking at how the root of the word of henna manifests
itself in other semitic languages. I do admit my limitations
when it comes to other semitic languages, and would point out
that Arabic is familiar grounds for me as a native speaker, as well
as maybe a little insight in its mechanisms. Other semitic languages
are areas of studies by themselves.

I also would thank you for your research of other semitic
languages related to henna, for it really is enlightening,
and you know what, it further supports ( at least when it
comes to Arabic) maybe why there is a turn off for men regarding
its odor. Maybe its semantic reference (femininty as tenderness
is tied to in general) is a contributing factor as well.

Now here is also a point by point follow-up on your post.
Before that, I would like to attract your attention to the following
disclaimer. When it comes to Arabic, my judgement is that
of a native speaker with a little insight of its workings.when it
comes to others, this judgement is based on speculations.
: Definitely a moment of joy!

: Your discussion of the connection of henna and tenderness
: linguistically is one I've been looking at in the dictionary for
: ages....(the Wehr Arabic-English). Thank you, thank you!
:
: Now ..... if I can ask further.....
: Looks like in Ugaritic (2000 BCE Syria) the root for henna is KPR,
.

In fact the thing that comes to mind is the historic sound
change of P into F in some semitic languages (euphrates
river for example is now futaat in Arabic, and my guess
would be the plant Kafoor which has an effect similar
to what in the west is reffered to as Peter Salt. A substance
that contributes to alleviating sexual desire (Libido)

However, I would not be surprised to see the semantic shift
that sometimes happens here and there. An example of change
of meaning between semitic languages can be seen in Beit Lahem
for example (the house of bread=lahem) Now in Arabic Lahem
was later to undergo semantic change to mean meat.

Even within the same language semantic change has been
witnessed. Like in ancient (pre-Islamic) poetry the word
for wine is what we, Arabs, now use for coffee

What I am getting at here is to see if the root KPR after
having unergone sound change (KFR) and got into Arabic
might have also undergone semantic change. Certainly something
worth looking into.
: I'm guessing this is related to Kopher in ancient Egyptian and
Cyprium
: and Camphire in Latin. However the root for the word "red" in the
: Canaanite language is "chna" which I believe to be related to the
: Greek Kino for henna, and henna in the Semitic languages. Am I on
the
: right track here?

You are undoubtedly searching for the needle in the right
pile or sack.

: Here's a further hunch ..... which seems to have been tripping up
: scholars previously .... does the KPR root refer to the same plant
as
: CHNA? Is the difference because of the different linguistic
groups,
: or do the two words refer to the two different uses of the plant:
KPR
: referring to the flowers and perfume and CHNA referring to the
leaves
: used for dye? I found a Babylonian text that uses both, and in the
: context, it makes sense that both perfume and dye were being used
in
: the same preparation; that would incline me to believe that the two
: words expressing different uses of the same plant (like wheat and
: straw) .

To tell you the truth, I am not familiar with this, but I am
equally fascianted by the shift and change here and there
that some words might undergo.

What is also fascinating, and I'm sure it didn't escape your
attention is by looking deeply into those issues (etynology)
one would grasp the concept of henna throughout the ages,
such as "correlation with redness" a physical property,
tenderness " abstract property" etc.....

: Of course, after the 6th century and spread of Arabic with Islam,
: things get a whole heck of a lot simpler.

: I've been craving a good linguist to talk to about this for AGES! I
am
: absolutely thrilled to find someone to ask these questions to!
: I work with Arabic in henna patterns because that was part of henna
in
: the 10th to 15 centuries, (parallel to the calligraphy in art) and
I
: am fascinated with it, but I've never been any good at learning
other
: languages. I just try to copy without messing up.

Thank you for your compliments, and I would refer you back to
the disclaimer above. Keeping in mind that this topic
could be extensive as well, if you want to track down
heena use and utterance in each and every semitic language.
It will lead you into almost a research type analysis
that depending on the depth of the approach could cover
pages and pages. In fact, I for one, would find such
research rewarding from a linguistic angle to say the least.

: And I would love to see that bazaar in Aleppo. I know it was full
of
: henna, textiles, wonderful things 4000 years ago ..... (still
waiting
: for repairs on the transporter beam AND the time machine)

: You've been through a US university? (sorry about Americans ....
: chronically thick subspecies) Which one? I did UCLA and I teach at
: Kent State.

Don't worry, in fact, I graduated about 7 years ago
from University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, with
an MA in Linguistics ( My focus was on Arabic and English)

Too bad I didn't do much in the field, save maybe for teaching
in a few colleges here and there. For the most part, it seems
that majors that are geared towards technology are
hailed as the thing to do nowadays. I developed a hobby
for computers, and spent more time with it ( have been attracted to
the idea of helping people in the middle east bypass censorships
that attempt at restricting freedom of expression). Still, though,
once a linguist, always a linguist. Like you're doomed
to it or something:-)

Now, though, you are helping me refresh my memories
of the field, and the books I have been neglecting
or have already given away.

Next time I'm by a public library, or have some access
to some semitic dictionaries, I'd look into some of the stuff
that you have been referring to.

My best regards to you

Babaganooj

Follow Ups:

Woops some typos Babaganooj 23:24:08 5/13/00 (1)
- Bedouins, and more linguistic shifts Catherine Cartwright Jones 11:30:12 5/14/00 (0)

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Comments:
: First, I applaud the research you have been doing on this topic, : especially the sholarliness of the approach, you certainly : are way ahead of something I was going to suggest as well. : Mainly looking at how the root of the word of henna manifests : itself in other semitic languages. I do admit my limitations : when it comes to other semitic languages, and would point out : that Arabic is familiar grounds for me as a native speaker, as well : as maybe a little insight in its mechanisms. Other semitic languages : are areas of studies by themselves. : I also would thank you for your research of other semitic : languages related to henna, for it really is enlightening, : and you know what, it further supports ( at least when it : comes to Arabic) maybe why there is a turn off for men regarding : its odor. Maybe its semantic reference (femininty as tenderness : is tied to in general) is a contributing factor as well. : Now here is also a point by point follow-up on your post. : Before that, I would like to attract your attention to the following : disclaimer. When it comes to Arabic, my judgement is that : of a native speaker with a little insight of its workings.when it : comes to others, this judgement is based on speculations. : : Definitely a moment of joy! : : Your discussion of the connection of henna and tenderness : : linguistically is one I've been looking at in the dictionary for : : ages....(the Wehr Arabic-English). Thank you, thank you! : : : : Now ..... if I can ask further..... : : Looks like in Ugaritic (2000 BCE Syria) the root for henna is KPR, : . : In fact the thing that comes to mind is the historic sound : change of P into F in some semitic languages (euphrates : river for example is now futaat in Arabic, and my guess : would be the plant Kafoor which has an effect similar : to what in the west is reffered to as Peter Salt. A substance : that contributes to alleviating sexual desire (Libido) : However, I would not be surprised to see the semantic shift : that sometimes happens here and there. An example of change : of meaning between semitic languages can be seen in Beit Lahem : for example (the house of bread=lahem) Now in Arabic Lahem : was later to undergo semantic change to mean meat. : Even within the same language semantic change has been : witnessed. Like in ancient (pre-Islamic) poetry the word : for wine is what we, Arabs, now use for coffee : What I am getting at here is to see if the root KPR after : having unergone sound change (KFR) and got into Arabic : might have also undergone semantic change. Certainly something : worth looking into. : : I'm guessing this is related to Kopher in ancient Egyptian and : Cyprium : : and Camphire in Latin. However the root for the word "red" in the : : Canaanite language is "chna" which I believe to be related to the : : Greek Kino for henna, and henna in the Semitic languages. Am I on : the : : right track here? : You are undoubtedly searching for the needle in the right : pile or sack. : : Here's a further hunch ..... which seems to have been tripping up : : scholars previously .... does the KPR root refer to the same plant : as : : CHNA? Is the difference because of the different linguistic : groups, : : or do the two words refer to the two different uses of the plant: : KPR : : referring to the flowers and perfume and CHNA referring to the : leaves : : used for dye? I found a Babylonian text that uses both, and in the : : context, it makes sense that both perfume and dye were being used : in : : the same preparation; that would incline me to believe that the two : : words expressing different uses of the same plant (like wheat and : : straw) . : To tell you the truth, I am not familiar with this, but I am : equally fascianted by the shift and change here and there : that some words might undergo. : What is also fascinating, and I'm sure it didn't escape your : attention is by looking deeply into those issues (etynology) : one would grasp the concept of henna throughout the ages, : such as "correlation with redness" a physical property, : tenderness " abstract property" etc..... : : Of course, after the 6th century and spread of Arabic with Islam, : : things get a whole heck of a lot simpler. : : I've been craving a good linguist to talk to about this for AGES! I : am : : absolutely thrilled to find someone to ask these questions to! : : I work with Arabic in henna patterns because that was part of henna : in : : the 10th to 15 centuries, (parallel to the calligraphy in art) and : I : : am fascinated with it, but I've never been any good at learning : other : : languages. I just try to copy without messing up. : Thank you for your compliments, and I would refer you back to : the disclaimer above. Keeping in mind that this topic : could be extensive as well, if you want to track down : heena use and utterance in each and every semitic language. : It will lead you into almost a research type analysis : that depending on the depth of the approach could cover : pages and pages. In fact, I for one, would find such : research rewarding from a linguistic angle to say the least. : : And I would love to see that bazaar in Aleppo. I know it was full : of : : henna, textiles, wonderful things 4000 years ago ..... (still : waiting : : for repairs on the transporter beam AND the time machine) : : You've been through a US university? (sorry about Americans .... : : chronically thick subspecies) Which one? I did UCLA and I teach at : : Kent State. : Don't worry, in fact, I graduated about 7 years ago : from University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, with : an MA in Linguistics ( My focus was on Arabic and English) : Too bad I didn't do much in the field, save maybe for teaching : in a few colleges here and there. For the most part, it seems : that majors that are geared towards technology are : hailed as the thing to do nowadays. I developed a hobby : for computers, and spent more time with it ( have been attracted to : the idea of helping people in the middle east bypass censorships : that attempt at restricting freedom of expression). Still, though, : once a linguist, always a linguist. Like you're doomed : to it or something:-) : Now, though, you are helping me refresh my memories : of the field, and the books I have been neglecting : or have already given away. : Next time I'm by a public library, or have some access : to some semitic dictionaries, I'd look into some of the stuff : that you have been referring to. : : My best regards to you : Babaganooj

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