Re: It will take a lot of hands to pull heads out of dark places Kenzi! :-)

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Posted by Kenzi on September 20, 2001 at 18:01:06:

In reply to: Re: It will take a lot of hands to pull heads out of dark places Kenzi! :-) posted by Robert on September 20, 2001 at 17:26:36:

: The USA has done everything it can to broker a peace deal between
: Palestinians and Israel. The Palestinian Authority is not a

They may try to appear to be brokering peace, but they don't do it
very fairly. They never ask Israel to stop building settlements in
Palestinian areas, kicking people out of their homes and land, without
compensation or even explanation.

: democracy and under the PA the Palestinians do not have the
franchise
: to vote in a leader or government. The Palestinians are denied
rights
: by the PLO, not America. The Palestinians deserve a democratic
: society and the USA has gone to great lengths to help them reach
that

They certainly do, but we support many countries and groups that do
not give all their citizens the right to vote, most notably China and
Kuwait. Saying that we don't support the PA because of their lack of
democracy is absurd.

: goal. The USA brokered peace talks have been in the paper and news
: here in Canada in the last few years. I am surprised that it has not
: been reported in the USA. All the NATO countries, indeed many, many
: countries, including South Africa recognise and support Israel.

These countries do not support Israel to the tune of $14 million a
day. And most of these countries don't play much of a role apart from
recognition of the government. The average Israeli family receives
more in US government assistance than the average American family on
welfare.

Will
: this “be said” to lead an genocide attack on say, Canada or Japan
or
: Nepal? That sort of thinking and rationalisation scares me.
:
: The USA has done nothing in the past to lead up to the Sept. 11 mass
: murders in the ovens that were the Free Trade Centre. People who
: whitewash the Sept. 11 mass murder with such claims are that past
: actions by USA could explain that the violent deaths of innocent
men,
: women and children need to . . . How was it put? Pull their head
out
: of the dark place.

No one is saying that the US deserved this attack. What I said was
that the US needs to look at its foreign policy and ask itself what it
has done to be so hated. To go on blindly believing that every act of
the US government is pure altruism is to live in a fantasy world.
This awful attack is a very painful way to be reminded that we are
part of a global community, that we are not the only country in the
world.
:
: Pakistan armed the Taliban with arms given to Pakistan by the USA.
: Afghanistan’s largest supplier of relief funds is the USA. Let me
: say it again to make it clear. The USA is the largest supplier- in
: the world- of aid money to Afghanistan. The USA did not abandon
: Afghanistan.

And you don't see any problem with US arms going to the Taleban,
albeit indirectly? Just because the US gives some aid to Afghanistan?
:
: As for the PLO. They are state sponsors of anti-Semitic literature
: via the school children who are taught hate in school, and
throughout
: state owned, that is PLO owned, radio and TV. If you wish to

What leads to that hate? What gives fuel to that? Do the
Palestinians just hate them in general, or because they have
experienced something in particular? Hate of entire group of people
is reprehensible but let us not just abhor it and ignore it; let us
try to understand why this hate exists. The whitewash is being done
by people who can't accept mistakes and can only see the US as a noble
player in this game.

support
: the PLO and its campaign of hatred and think that your country
: somehow instigated this genocide in the ovens that were the World
: Trade Centre then so be it. If you think that the USA’s support

Hmmmm, did I say that the US instigated it? I don't remember using
that word.

for
: democracy and individual rights, such as a woman’s right to work and
: a girl’s right to go to school, which the Talibans equate to
thoughts
: straight from the devil, that “could be said to have led to this
: attack” so be it.
:
:
: No wants a war. Everyone wants to feel secure. But to achive this
: the evil perpetrators who believe that mass murder is fine must be
: brought to justice. This will in all likelihood require violence.
To
: think that bin Laden was driven to this state of malfeasance
: because “ USA did do a lot in the world in the past that could be
: said to have led to this attack” is well . . .your clever little
: remark complete with happy face says it all "It will take a lot of
: hands to pull heads out of dark places! "

I see that you only want facile explanations for what went on, that
the subtleties are too much. There is no clear line of blame in this
because of the cyclical nature of violence. We don't know where it
started, who caused who to hate whom, but anything that any country or
individual did to create or augment hate can be said to culpable in
this attack.

I also want justice but I also want dialogue and a change of paradigm
because what we have been doing prior to the attack

Follow Ups

Re: It will take a lot of hands to pull heads out of dark places Kenzi! :-) WHO IS THIS KENZI? SHE HAS NO IDEA 14:32:45 10/2/2001 (0)
Re: It will take a lot of hands to pull heads out of dark places Kenzi! :-) Is that sarcasim A lurker 18:06:25 9/28/2001 (0)
Please reply Robert 16:57:52 9/24/2001 (0)
Perhaps the BBC can explain it better than I can Kenzi 22:49:31 9/20/2001 (0)

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: : The USA has done everything it can to broker a peace deal between : : Palestinians and Israel. The Palestinian Authority is not a : : They may try to appear to be brokering peace, but they don't do it : very fairly. They never ask Israel to stop building settlements in : Palestinian areas, kicking people out of their homes and land, without : compensation or even explanation. : : : democracy and under the PA the Palestinians do not have the : franchise : : to vote in a leader or government. The Palestinians are denied : rights : : by the PLO, not America. The Palestinians deserve a democratic : : society and the USA has gone to great lengths to help them reach : that : : They certainly do, but we support many countries and groups that do : not give all their citizens the right to vote, most notably China and : Kuwait. Saying that we don't support the PA because of their lack of : democracy is absurd. : : : goal. The USA brokered peace talks have been in the paper and news : : here in Canada in the last few years. I am surprised that it has not : : been reported in the USA. All the NATO countries, indeed many, many : : countries, including South Africa recognise and support Israel. : : These countries do not support Israel to the tune of $14 million a : day. And most of these countries don't play much of a role apart from : recognition of the government. The average Israeli family receives : more in US government assistance than the average American family on : welfare. : : Will : : this “be said” to lead an genocide attack on say, Canada or Japan : or : : Nepal? That sort of thinking and rationalisation scares me. : : : : The USA has done nothing in the past to lead up to the Sept. 11 mass : : murders in the ovens that were the Free Trade Centre. People who : : whitewash the Sept. 11 mass murder with such claims are that past : : actions by USA could explain that the violent deaths of innocent : men, : : women and children need to . . . How was it put? Pull their head : out : : of the dark place. : : No one is saying that the US deserved this attack. What I said was : that the US needs to look at its foreign policy and ask itself what it : has done to be so hated. To go on blindly believing that every act of : the US government is pure altruism is to live in a fantasy world. : This awful attack is a very painful way to be reminded that we are : part of a global community, that we are not the only country in the : world. : : : : Pakistan armed the Taliban with arms given to Pakistan by the USA. : : Afghanistan’s largest supplier of relief funds is the USA. Let me : : say it again to make it clear. The USA is the largest supplier- in : : the world- of aid money to Afghanistan. The USA did not abandon : : Afghanistan. : : And you don't see any problem with US arms going to the Taleban, : albeit indirectly? Just because the US gives some aid to Afghanistan? : : : : As for the PLO. They are state sponsors of anti-Semitic literature : : via the school children who are taught hate in school, and : throughout : : state owned, that is PLO owned, radio and TV. If you wish to : : What leads to that hate? What gives fuel to that? Do the : Palestinians just hate them in general, or because they have : experienced something in particular? Hate of entire group of people : is reprehensible but let us not just abhor it and ignore it; let us : try to understand why this hate exists. The whitewash is being done : by people who can't accept mistakes and can only see the US as a noble : player in this game. : : support : : the PLO and its campaign of hatred and think that your country : : somehow instigated this genocide in the ovens that were the World : : Trade Centre then so be it. If you think that the USA’s support : : Hmmmm, did I say that the US instigated it? I don't remember using : that word. : : for : : democracy and individual rights, such as a woman’s right to work and : : a girl’s right to go to school, which the Talibans equate to : thoughts : : straight from the devil, that “could be said to have led to this : : attack” so be it. : : : : : : No wants a war. Everyone wants to feel secure. But to achive this : : the evil perpetrators who believe that mass murder is fine must be : : brought to justice. This will in all likelihood require violence. : To : : think that bin Laden was driven to this state of malfeasance : : because “ USA did do a lot in the world in the past that could be : : said to have led to this attack” is well . . .your clever little : : remark complete with happy face says it all "It will take a lot of : : hands to pull heads out of dark places! " : : I see that you only want facile explanations for what went on, that : the subtleties are too much. There is no clear line of blame in this : because of the cyclical nature of violence. We don't know where it : started, who caused who to hate whom, but anything that any country or : individual did to create or augment hate can be said to culpable in : this attack. : : I also want justice but I also want dialogue and a change of paradigm : because what we have been doing prior to the attack
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