Wear 2 pairs of glasses, and take a magnifying glass with you.

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Posted by Catherine Cartwright Jones on November 5, 2001 at 04:13:46:

In reply to: My research so far- can i get bigger pictures somehow? posted by Lauren on November 5, 2001 at 03:38:27:

Learn to love your lenses. Never leave home without a magnifying
glass. Or three. Get the one that has a little battery powered
light!

: which are easy enough to come by. So far i have found only three
: pics of an actual design- an astrological sketch showing two women

That's a GOOD one! Glad you found it! I think it's a significant
question just WHAT constellation that is! I've not been able to
identify it ... they seem to be warrior women to me, but I can't
verify that.

BTW ... the originals are freeking MICROSCOPIC. The only disadvantage
you have in the prints are the teeny dots, and not being able to make
a judgement call about what's a smudge and what's a henna pattern.

: intrigued. Is there a reference book which has locations of various
: art works?

See if the bibliography in each book has the sources for the plates.
If they don't, yell at the publisher .. they SHOULD include that!
There's nothing I hate as much as insufficient bibliographic material!
Fortunately ... most of the good stuff is listed in several places so
at least one source is properly documented.

: I'm very disappointed that I haven't found any other designs. It
: seems that Indian stuff was still primarily dips even into the
: 1800s. When did the lacework start?

1822. Really. As far as I can verify, 1822. I'm not fooling, I've
been ofer that one a zillion times, and Persia had all the lacework
before then. Complex discussion of exacly WHY .... but the answer,
for India, is that as of 1822 complex patterned work can be verified.
A painting currently held in the Victoria and Albert shows it quite
clearly. Before that, complex patterned work appeared as blackened
henna work ONLY on Persian women, though they occasionally lived
alongside Hindu women in the Mughal harems. Very minimal patterns
start turning up in India by 1700, and increases gradually ... and
bursts into rococco brilliance in 1822. Very interesting political and
economic discussion as to WHY!

: I found no pictures other than
: very modern ones of Indian women with any sort of pattern.

Yup. A few solar patterns through the 1700's but that's about it.

: I'm surprised i haven't found more Turkish stuff. I have quite a few
: books of turkish art

There's not the pictorial record of women in Turkey that there is in
Persia. There's henna in Turkish art ... but it takes a VERY healthy
economy to support artists, leisure and well-decorated ladies. Then
... it takes a cultural willingness to portray the women with their
henna on. Then, they have to have enlightened generations after that
when the art of libertine eras was not destroyed. Some countries have
more of that than others. Persia's manuscripts, for one reason or
another, have survived .... Dig for Persia in the 16th century!
Goldmine!

When you find the stuff, you'll see that the pic linked below is dead
on the original! I got to spend several hours with the original book
at the Bodliean Library last May!

Research isn't a drudge ... it's an OBESESSION! Welcome to the
addiction! Yes, you have to go through TONS of books. After a while,
you get a knack for it ...... and the right ones leap off the shelf at
you!

down the rabbit hole, digging for the 16th century

Follow Ups

Oh, a couple things I forgot to ask about (especially for CCJ) Lauren 15:18:58 11/5/2001 (5)
- The value of digging the same hole twice Catherine Cartwright Jones 16:50:42 11/5/2001 (4)
  - Tanit statue Lauren 21:37:02 11/5/2001 (3)
    - Re: Tanit statue Catherine Cartwright Jones 00:11:51 11/6/2001 (2)
      - Alhambra book Lauren 13:19:14 11/6/2001 (1)
        
        Re: Alhambra book Catherine Cartwright Jones 18:19:44 11/6/2001 (0)
More info on what I found Lauren 15:00:54 11/5/2001 (0)

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: Learn to love your lenses. Never leave home without a magnifying : glass. Or three. Get the one that has a little battery powered : light! : : : which are easy enough to come by. So far i have found only three : : pics of an actual design- an astrological sketch showing two women : : : That's a GOOD one! Glad you found it! I think it's a significant : question just WHAT constellation that is! I've not been able to : identify it ... they seem to be warrior women to me, but I can't : verify that. : : BTW ... the originals are freeking MICROSCOPIC. The only disadvantage : you have in the prints are the teeny dots, and not being able to make : a judgement call about what's a smudge and what's a henna pattern. : : : : intrigued. Is there a reference book which has locations of various : : art works? : : : See if the bibliography in each book has the sources for the plates. : If they don't, yell at the publisher .. they SHOULD include that! : There's nothing I hate as much as insufficient bibliographic material! : Fortunately ... most of the good stuff is listed in several places so : at least one source is properly documented. : : : : I'm very disappointed that I haven't found any other designs. It : : seems that Indian stuff was still primarily dips even into the : : 1800s. When did the lacework start? : : 1822. Really. As far as I can verify, 1822. I'm not fooling, I've : been ofer that one a zillion times, and Persia had all the lacework : before then. Complex discussion of exacly WHY .... but the answer, : for India, is that as of 1822 complex patterned work can be verified. : A painting currently held in the Victoria and Albert shows it quite : clearly. Before that, complex patterned work appeared as blackened : henna work ONLY on Persian women, though they occasionally lived : alongside Hindu women in the Mughal harems. Very minimal patterns : start turning up in India by 1700, and increases gradually ... and : bursts into rococco brilliance in 1822. Very interesting political and : economic discussion as to WHY! : : : I found no pictures other than : : very modern ones of Indian women with any sort of pattern. : : Yup. A few solar patterns through the 1700's but that's about it. : : : I'm surprised i haven't found more Turkish stuff. I have quite a few : : books of turkish art : : There's not the pictorial record of women in Turkey that there is in : Persia. There's henna in Turkish art ... but it takes a VERY healthy : economy to support artists, leisure and well-decorated ladies. Then : ... it takes a cultural willingness to portray the women with their : henna on. Then, they have to have enlightened generations after that : when the art of libertine eras was not destroyed. Some countries have : more of that than others. Persia's manuscripts, for one reason or : another, have survived .... Dig for Persia in the 16th century! : Goldmine! : : When you find the stuff, you'll see that the pic linked below is dead : on the original! I got to spend several hours with the original book : at the Bodliean Library last May! : : Research isn't a drudge ... it's an OBESESSION! Welcome to the : addiction! Yes, you have to go through TONS of books. After a while, : you get a knack for it ...... and the right ones leap off the shelf at : you!
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